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An enormous opportunity
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Bays Precinct, in particular Glebe Island, White Bay and White Bay Power Station, provides an enormous opportunity for Sydney. How do you think Sydneysiders should use this significant piece of harbour foreshore land in the future?
This online discussion forum has concluded. You can still browse the site but the discussion area will no longer accept new comments or votes.
Comment 1 2 Jul 2009, 3:36 PM
1. With 2 exceptions (see below) the Bays Precinct (BP) should not be used for residential development.
2. The old Glebe Island Bridge must be retained, conserved and progressively re-activated as a direct link between the CBD and the passenger shipping terminal at White Bay (see below) and relocated Sydney Fish Market (also see below).
Now, working east through the sub-precincts:
3. Rozelle rail yards will continue to be required for Metro stabling, a possible Metro corridor, the light rail corridor and construction/filtration sites for the M4 East. Perimeter uses could include medium to hight density residential and open space (parks) depending on more…
Comment 1.1 6 Jul 2009, 4:26 PM
Great to see a detailed proposal - can't say I agree with it all, but at least a starting point. My comments:
1. Some minor additional residential areas are fine (and inevitable), as long as there is additional public transport to cope
2. Agree completely - prioritising a small number of boats vs a large number of commuters/public is crazy
3.4.5. No problems here, except the dry boat storage shed will by definition be godawful. See Pier35 in Melbourne for what we're in for.
6. Agree with renovating, disagree with the circus idea - not sure why you think this is more viable than more…
Comment 1.2 10 Jul 2009, 7:44 PM
I can tell you are a "view corridor" kind of guy. Geographically the area is a bottle-neck and cant cope with large crowds no matter how good the transport. You are cramming all types of industry, housing, entertainment precincts and bus depots etc into the area. Sydney is full ! We need more open space. Glebe Island Bridge needs to be for people, cyclists, and light rail - no cars. I wonder how the passengers on the luxury cruise ships would cope with the smell from the fish markets. Thanks for starting the debate but I disagree with a lot you have to say.
Comment 1.3 18 Jul 2009, 9:18 AM
1.No sure I agree with this, The White bay side could well provide a manageable mix of parkland, Commercial retail and some residential.
2. Love that old Bridge and I enjoy the connection to Pyrmont via bus walk or bike only.
3. Dry boat shed will probably go ahead but I agree with GLC it could well make a mess of the bay,... and the building yuk.
4. Not sure
5. Yes Defiantly, I would also suggest that this activity be extended to Glebe Island.
6. I have no warmth to this old building but some of the machinery including the control room would more…
Comment 1.4 22 Jul 2009, 1:06 PM
I like the idea about the moving the fish market. It would provide a credible use for the area and provide an injection of character. Much more so than slapping up a soulless Westfield.
Comment 2 2 Jul 2009, 3:36 PM
removed by moderator - duplicate posting
Comment 3 3 Jul 2009, 8:45 PM
The crucial thing for the entire foreshore is public access. Whilst the somewhat romantic idea of a working harbour appeals to some the reality is that those days are gone forever - the last cargo ship has already set sail.
We are faced with two options:
1. A luxury boat marina precinct
2. Residential
If the area is marina then there will be very limited public access. Just look at the newly completed dry boat facility under Anzac Bridge and the state of James Craig Road.
If its residential then we would get something like the forshore over at Bicentennial Park Glebe or Jacksons more…
Comment 3.1 5 Jul 2009, 6:24 PM
I don't share your dislike of a working harbour, MattB, but all things considered, residential like Pyrmont with lots of access is probably the best option. Fixing up the Fish Market, moving and expanding it, and encouraging activities which bring people to the area would be good too. Pyrmont is improving, but sometimes it feels a bit "lifeless"
Strange, because there are lots of people living there. But they all seem to just drive to their apartments and stay inside!
Comment 3.1.1 10 Jul 2009, 7:32 PM
You need to visit the water front park at the weekends, it is really busy with locals and others. Rest of the week most of us are at work. The community turned out in force last weekend to save Union Square - so Pyrmont is vibrant not lifeless in my opinion.
Comment 4 4 Jul 2009, 6:16 PM
I believe this creates an enormous opportunity to revitalise the ecology of our bays area and connect in our daily lives to our unique Australian nature. Something that is easily pushed to the background in city life. A shared recreation and environmental area can be created which fits in perfectly with the Sydney 2030 objectives. Creating a loop by using the Glebe Island Bridge as a recreational pathway, would increase the attractivity of the area tremendously. Entertainment and activities based on sustainable practice and education would fit in really well.
Comment 5 5 Jul 2009, 6:13 PM
I was in Freemantle recently, and that city sure shows us a thing or two! They have a great working harbour of course, but also incorporated into it all are fishing boat operations, fish market and associated retail, restored historical precincts with museums and old buildings adapted for modern use, a lively entertainment zone and even an amazing boutique brewery (Little Creatures). The whole area was buzzing with people. They were spending money and enjoying themselves, and they had come from all over Perth just to hang out and be there.
That would be my ideal for this area! Its no coincidence that Freemantle is “the place” to live, and house prices are rising rapidly.
When I look at the desolate, empty space now around our waterfront, with a few sad crumbling building, it makes me sad.
But what would be much worse would be those empty parks and so-called “nature zones” so many people on this forum seem to want. Who are they for? Defecating dogs and grumpy cyclists?
Comment 5.1 7 Jul 2009, 11:02 AM
The foreshore walks are becoming very popular. The walk from Annandale to Glebe and indeed the whole 6.5km circuit of the bay incorporating Anzac Bridge is also being used extensivley. On the weekends the place is packed. I agree the dogs spoil it somewhat but they are only a minor distraction to an otherwise great community asset.
Comment 5.1.1 10 Jul 2009, 9:44 PM
One idea for the White Bay Power Stn,could be an MCA style art gallery space, featuring Aboriginal Art[s]. This would tick the boxes for Tourism, Heritage reuse of the building, Australian Culture, suit the locals, etc. At the rear or sides...a small scale cinema similiar to Norton St Palace, an Indoor Rock Climbing Centre, as suggested above. Lots of access to green space & the water,so Sydneysiders can get out & enjoy their city. A Bay run style circuit might take some pressure off the Bay Run [as it's now often overcrowded.]Relocating the Fish Markets and expanding it as a feature precinct of Sydney appeals to me. Affordable housing and small scale work spaces, similiar to the ones already near White Bay could be tucked into some of the less picturesque parts of the site, creating more jobs and activity in the area. [Naturally it would all run on solar power etc..as a shining example to passers by...!]
Please, no more "alcohol & gambling "oriented development, no major hi rise designer apartments, no shopping malls.
Comment 5.2 23 Jul 2009, 2:43 PM
i agree totally with the land being used to develop an entertainment precinct, similar to that in Freemantle. Its lively atmosphere incorperated with the working harbour should be the primary aim of any redevelopment.
This and parklands do not have to be mutually exclusive. Afterall, its 80 hectares. As a rough proposal glebe island and the existing syndey fish markets could be developed as an entertainment district (ie. restaurants, museums, fish markets ect.) white bay and rozelle bay can then be developed as foreshore parklands.
Personally im a strong advocate of higher density living, however i do not feel there should be any residential development (apart from perhaps limited development around the rozelle railyards).
In my opinion, development similar to that of fremantle and blaxland riverside park in sydney would be ideal.
Comment 6 8 Jul 2009, 2:22 PM
Why isn't the future use of the old Glebe Island Bridge included in this consultation. I think it should be. As a pedestrian/cycle access and an important piece of heritage it is an absolutely fundamental part of any planning for the Bays Precinct.
Comment 6.1 13 Jul 2009, 6:27 PM
Unfortunatley the Glebe Island Swing Brige is an impediment to the patrons of the luxury super boat marina and dry boat facility. Having a lot to do with the harbour myself I can tell you from my own experience that the skippers of these new class of boats are far removed from maritime culture and despite all the gadjets imaginable they can't manoeuvre their boats - so for their sake the bridge has to go!
And the powers that be will give these people priority over everyone else - why? Because their gutless.
Comment 6.2 24 Jul 2009, 2:26 PM
the bridge could also accomodate light rail, which could then be extended along old pyrmont bridge, rendering the $5.3 billion metro line unneccessary.
Comment 7 12 Jul 2009, 10:55 AM
I have heard a lot of views over the years on White Bay Power Station. The idea that I like the most is a World Class Environment and Sustainability Centre. The major functions of the centre would be to assist in the education of environmental and sustainability practices relevant to all sectors of the community, large corporations, local councils, small business and the individual households. The centre would cover the following key areas but is not limited too and would change in time.
1) Air and Water Pollution
2) Greenhouse gases
3) Bio diversity
4) Landfill
5) Energy and Transport
Facilities to be included would cover more…
Comment 8 12 Jul 2009, 3:39 PM
I wonder what the purpose of this consultation is?
The Planning Minister will have already made her mind. Based on the tragic fate of Callan Park (given to a Council which will do nothing) and now sadly Harold Park’s too, her decision about what will happen our vitally important waterfront will be based on one calculation only:
Will it keep Verity Firth in the seat of Balmain?
So she will do nothing.
White Bay’s role as a working harbour should never have been abandoned. Doing so has been an act of economic stupidity and environmental vandalism. Our cars and cargo should be unloaded as more…
Comment 8.1 20 Jul 2009, 10:11 PM
Russel, there are some valid points there but it doesn't add much that is constructive. I do share your feelings about the working harbour, I miss it too, but the point is: what will happen next?
The deep water harbour is very valuable, true. But I don't think this government is thinking long term (peak oil, future environmental sustainability), it simply wants a big pay-off from selling the land to the highest bidder.
So high density housing is probably what will happen. If you look at Pyrmont, that's not so bad. But with White Bay and Rozelle Goods Yard, I think the developers should be compelled to provide a big component of low income housing – as a condition of any approval.
The city is for all of us, rich and poor.
Comment 9 14 Jul 2009, 10:49 AM
A White Bay Overview
My idea is a balanced plan which I think addresses resident, public, and commercial needs including those already announced and committed to by government:
It includes the proposed cruise terminal, the preservation of White Bay Power Station in line with the published reports, the Metro Station, a new film studio complex next to the power station, a creative artists studios and gallery and community arts centre, permanent public open space opposite the current park, with new community gardens, foreshore access, a new ferry service to the City West and Circular Quay via Pyrmont, resident parking preference, all more…
Comment 9.1 14 Jul 2009, 11:17 PM
I'm not so sure...we don't want another Fox studio on our shores. While this all sounds great to start with, when we have the next GFC we could end up with what is now Moore Park, I think it's a bit too risky. Also I have to say I don't think the film industry is crying out for infrastructure?
Comment 9.1.1 15 Jul 2009, 12:42 PM
Perhaps I haven't been clear. I'm suggesting a small scale professional studio - 4 sound stages and support facilities- NOT an Entertainment Quarter. I have worked in film for 30 years and we don't have enough sound stages in Sydney to make ensure sustainability of employment and access for local films. Fox professional is always booked and local productions can't get in. This proposal would only be for sound stages and production space which the industry does need to attract foreign film investment and provide for local productions. This is a low impact, high skills employer which they tell us is what we should be chasing. It's important infrastructure - without the studio (factory) floor space to make films, the money and jobs go to other states. And White Bay has a long film history so it seems a nice fit
Comment 9.2 15 Jul 2009, 11:48 PM
Mariachi - hi. My fear like TTMaree is that we'll get another Fox Studios, where public land (the showground) was sequestered by private interests (Fox) for a non-public purpose (making and selling films). The backlot public component was quickly despatched; the public is now excluded.
Is that what we want for White Bay?
Comment 9.2.1 19 Jul 2009, 2:44 PM
I see it more as an opportunity to use a small part of the site near the power station to establish something like the Technology Park / Carriageworks developments have done at Eveleigh, where the government has made an investment in new technology businesses and the arts by giving over part of those sites to new uses. Private interests would probably need to be involved at White Bay to reduce taxpayers' inputs, but done right it could be a win/win for everyone. For every export dollar earned by bringing in a foreign film to shoot in Sydney, the multiplier effect through the economy means money into the local economy and jobs. The studios would also support local filmmakers, and it would contribute to running the artists studios and galleries on the same site (or is supporting visual artists off the agenda because they too are a private business?) This site would be way smaller than Fox, but could be a big contributor to the economy and creative life of Sydney.
Comment 10 17 Jul 2009, 7:47 PM
We are faced with a massive change in the way that we manage our cities due to a necessary adjustment in our lifestyle for Climate Change. There is no option but to make these changes before it is to late for all of us.
This area represents an opportunity to establish a sustainable community in our city.
An precinct that can measure its emissions
An precinct that can reduce the carbon footprint of all its residents
An precinct that can be a showcase of what is possible.
where residents don't have to get into a car to shop or drop the kids off
Where there is a regular ferry service to the City
Comment 11 19 Jul 2009, 12:28 PM
There should be parks and open space for the public and other facilities for the public to use (i.e sporting etc). it is essential that this space is designed with appropriate uses in mind so that it doesn't become void of activity when the tourists aren't around (i.e Olympic Park).
Comment 12 19 Jul 2009, 7:29 PM
An enormous opportunity exists to rejoin the communities divided by the roads and railways in this area. Victoria Rd, City West Link and the rail yards divide Balmain, Rozelle and Lilyfield. Redevelopment should include pedestrian and cycling links across these barriers to promote local living, permeability of neighbourhoods, and sustainable transport. Whatever happens on the land, links across it should be included. Glebe Island Swing bridge must stay, and be re-opened, for the same reason
Comment 12.1 23 Jul 2009, 3:05 PM
personally, i think the metro line should be scrapped. 5.3 billion dollars for 3 new train stations (and according to government figures running almost empty)??? it defies logic, particularly considering its location and the abundance of alternative transport modes. the glebe island bridge should be converted for padestrians/cyclists and light rail, linking on to the existing line. This line should connect the new passenger terminal (i think it was a big mistake and another example of state government stupidity not to locate it at baragnaroo). the existing light rail line should also be extended to dulwich hill. the 5.3 billion would be far better spent on the western line to parra although should have station at least every kilometer or the line under anzac parade. as for victoria road, i think dedicated buslanes should provide a high frequency, fast bus service should run the length of victoria road (like in garry glazebrooks proposal), strapped to the existing iron cove bridge. i dont see any sense in encouraging more cars onto one of sydneys most congested roads.
LOGICAL Public transport must remain an essential priority to the NSW government.
Comment 13 20 Jul 2009, 4:08 PM
I am glad to find a forum on this. Does anyone know what is going to be done with our comments? It would be good to see some ongoing summary work put up on this site.
My thoughts:
Activities likely to increase water pollution and oil in the water should be avoided in these landlocked sections of the harbour with poor water circulation. It is great to see the inner harbour ecosystem coming back to life!! For water quality reasons, big ships and polluting water craft should be kept as close to the harbour mouth as possible. Would love to see a more…
Comment 13.1 21 Jul 2009, 9:50 PM
Before the white man? What does that mean Dave? The land is in the middle of a modern 21st century city.
And why is concrete and iron ugly? That is a value judgement which is not very useful.
So what will be done with comments like yours Dave? They will be ignored. Sorry, but be practical.
Comment 13.2 23 Jul 2009, 7:08 PM
Excellent post Eyred - Here Here!
Comment 14 21 Jul 2009, 5:41 PM
I agree the Bay Precinct does provide an enormous opportunity for Sydney - but a big opportunity does not necessarily have to mean big development.
If Sydney wants to compete as a world class tourist destination it is not more convention centres and shopping malls that are required. With some vision the Bay Precinct area could be turned into a parkland paradise on the harbour, serviced by ferries and a metro. With the increasing need for high density residential development accross Sydney our children and grandchildren will appreaciate having green, open and accessible spaces on our harbour foreshore far more than any big commercial development.
Imagine the vision it took to create New York's Central Park. The Bay Precinct offers the same opportunity to Sydney.
Comment 14.1 23 Jul 2009, 3:13 PM
while i agree that big development would ruin this great opportunity and agree with the development of extensive parklands, i feel that commerical development is needed to transform this region into a lively, entertainment hub.
Small commericial developments and the fish markets are ideal, completmenting the large open space.
I do not feel there should be any residential development, as this is land that the sydney public should all be able to enjoy.
Comment 15 21 Jul 2009, 9:55 PM
Its a great opportunity to give our children somewhere to live which is attractive and convenient.
Somewhere close to their parents (yes, me), close to the CBD and transport (the Metro and light rail).
Residential should be mixed with commercial and recreational uses. It's really exciting to a such a "blank canvas" to work with.
Please. please get it right!
Comment 16 22 Jul 2009, 12:54 PM
Firstly, I strongly believe that ALL THE FORESHORE should be reserved for public access. With increasing urban density in Sydney, this land is far too valuable to sell off for short term gain.
As to the remaining areas: I suggest they be MIXED USAGE, including:
Parkland, Retail, medium rise residential, small scale commercial, hotels and entertainment/cultural.
I caution against zoning the area entirely for one use - look at North Sydney, close to 100% commercial means it is lifeless outside of business hours, or look at Pyrmont, close to 100% residential means that it is lifeless most of the time. Have a look at Darlinghurst, Surry Hills, Newtown, and Leichhardt - thriving inner urban areas. They’re thriving because people want to live, work and play there.
Please whatever happens, please do not allocate the development of the entire area to one developer. A 100% pre-planned development will be a white-elephant (eg Darling Harbour) or has a great chance of corporate blandness like the Truman show.
Lastly, please make it ACCESSIBLE for all of Sydney. Both physically (ie train or ferry) and financially (not just for the toffs who need a waterfront house to moor their yacht).
Comment 16.1 23 Jul 2009, 3:28 PM
'Please whatever happens, please do not allocate the development of the entire area to one developer' - i couldnt agree more. i really hope this is not what the state government is going to do at barangaroo (but knowing how absolutly pathetic they are it is destined to happen).
i still do not support residential development in the area, however. THe surrounding suburbs of Balmain, Annandale and Glebe ect are already some of the densest in sydney. If there is any more residential development, it should be in these existing suburbs.
I believe it should remain a recreation and entertainment district (ie parks, small scale commercial).
someone needs to defend the regular people to prevent this land falling into the hands of rich 'toffs' and there million dollar yachts and marinas. so far, they seem like they're sole factor against the use of the glebe island bridge for padestrians/cyclists and light rail.
Comment 17 22 Jul 2009, 9:14 PM
Hi All,
I haven't read through everyone's comments but I thought i'd have my say and add some ideas.
1) The precinct should accommodate some form of architecturally designed and sustainable residential housing. In particular this could house a percentage of much needed public service officers such as nurses, police and women, firemen, care workers, ambulance drivers etc. that require residency nearby the city.
2) The current curvature and shape of the bay is harsh and unnatural. This need to be redefined to a more natural and aesthetically pleasing manner which compliments Barangaroo.
3) White bay power station should be maintained more…
Comment 17.1 23 Jul 2009, 3:41 PM
your idea of a light rail line connecting baragaroo and white bay got me thinking. the metro line endorsed by the government not only costs heeps but is forecast to run almost empty. A light rail line would be far more suitable, preferably using the old glebe island bridge (yes their might be some controversy with multimilionaires and their luxury liners, but this should be a project for the regular people) then replace the monerail and cross glebe island bridge linking to barangaroo. cyclists, padestrians and public transport should be strongly encouraged.
a boardwalk similiar to King St. Walk is a great idea (full of small businesses ect). this cant be left to the hands of one developer!!
i still am not convinced with residential development. No matter what development is endorsed, it will always rocket out of the reach of the regular working class (due to simple market principles - its location is almost unbeatable).
Comment 17.1.1 23 Jul 2009, 4:03 PM
come to think of it, a ferry service would also be far more practical.
Comment 17.1.2 26 Jul 2009, 4:22 PM
I think its up the the government to insist on a component of affordable housing. Canada Bay Council has done that, and Sydney City Council also (I think). They are worried that essential workers, who are not all well paid, are being priced out. The State Government has a lot more clout, and could fix that, if they had the political will.
A big IF, but you have made some excellent points, WK. Diversity, vitality, accessibility to ordinary people is the key to success.
It is a fantastic location. Looks a bit grim right now though.
Comment 18 27 Jul 2009, 2:01 PM
The Bays Precinct - Summary:
1. White Bay - Sydney Transport Heritage Precinct, featuring: The Sydney Heritge Fleet, Rail Museum, Tram Museum, Bus Museum and Old Sydney Town.
2. Glebe Island - Open Green Space, sporting field, grassy picnic areas and a variety of big native trees and shrubs.
3. Rozelle Bay - Expanded Superyacht marina, more green space and restuarants.
4. Black Wattle Bay - public access and public moorings.
5. White Bay Power Station - Family friendly entertainment area with grean leafy space around.
6. General - Walkway / cycleway , more public moorings and new ferry wharves and ferry route.
The Bays Precinct, more more…
Comment 19 28 Jul 2009, 11:30 AM
Rail access to the harbour should be retained
There should be public access to the foreshore that maintains the approach in Glebe - parks are not always necessary but there should be opportunities for parks in some locations. The foreshore should activated with integrated land uses for day and night activities.
The old Glebe Island Bridge should be retained as a pedestrian and cycle link. Have you ever walked or cycled across that ugly, noisy, gritty ANZAC bridge?
Any re-development of this area must not encourage travel by cars. The pensinsula is already congested. There must not be parking to encourage people to drive - don't build car parks.
Comment 20 29 Jul 2009, 7:53 PM
Overall I would like to see the Bays Precinct primarily utilised for cultural, social and recreational uses. It would be criminal if this area was turned into another Darling Harbour. It should retain and enhance the feel of the surrounding local area.
The main features of the Bays Precinct redevelopment that I would advocate are:
- Tasteful high density residential development, restricted to the landward fringe of the site and height restricted to fit in with current views and lines of sight from current residential areas (no, I do not live on the fringe of the bay). It would be nice to more…
